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This Being Human Transcript

Ep. 23 – Misha Euceph

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

My name is Abdul-Rehman Malik. I’m canvassing the world for the most interesting people, to

hear about their journeys, their work, and what it means to be alive in the world today. And

perhaps nobody has captured that experience, of being alive, better than the 13th-century

Persian poet and Sufi mystic Jalaluddin Rumi in his poem “The Guest House.”

FEMALE VOICE:

This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new arrival. A joy, a depression, a

meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and

entertain them all.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

So welcome to This Being Human. A podcast inspired by Rumi’s words and motivated by all

those who carry that message forward in the world today. Today, podcast host Misha Euceph.

MISHA EUCEPH:
I have never felt like I belong anywhere. And even today, with rare exceptions, I feel very much judged for who I am and how I live my life. And I just wanted a space where I could be the kind of person who really, really loves the Qur’an, like really loves reading the book, really likes the language Urdu, really likes poetry in my language and my culture and my artistic tradition, and wants to continue to have a relationship with my country of origin or my country of birth, while being deeply American.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

On the podcast Tell Them I Am, Misha Euceph invites an all-star roster of Muslims — including Queer Eye’s Tan France, religious scholar Reza Aslan, and actress Alia Shawkat — to hone in on a single life-defining moment that shapes who they are. The show scraps the big hemming and hawing about being Muslim in the 21st century, and instead focuses on universal, yet deeply intimate stories. The episodes are bite-sized, 10 to 20 minutes in length, with beautiful use of sound, and framed by Misha’s own anecdotes and meditations on life. The show has won a lot of acclaim in the press. She even got the attention of the Obamas and went on to co-produce their podcasts. Misha is not yet 30, and she’s already the CEO of her own company, Dustlight Productions. I called her up to get some of her secrets. We ended up talking about all kinds of things: her early experiences in college radio, her struggle to take ownership of her show, and how her parents feel about being talked about on a hit podcast.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Misha Euceph, I’m so happy to have you on This Being Human.

MISHA EUCEPH:

Hi, thank you so much for having me and for the lovely, complimentary intro. I love it. I love all the flattery in the world.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

In your podcast Tell Them, I Am, you hone into your guests’ lives and ask them for that single defining moment that shapes them. So I’ll ask you this: can you think of a moment in your life that put you on the path to where you are today?

MISHA EUCEPH:
I think there are a lot of moments and some of them have made it into the podcast itself, right? There is the moment that I talk about in season one where, when I was a little kid and my sister and a few family friends of ours were walking around Karachi with our, you know, blocks of rupees and ran into a snake charmer. And I realized in that moment in that encounter that I was somebody who didn’t like being conned, that truth and honesty and “what you see is what you get” kind of vibes were very much me and also that I was very much a protector. So there have been moments like that, or even like I was in a life-changing car accident in September of 2019 and that made it into the podcast. I’m constantly trying to mine for new moments to try to kind of understand myself better. Something I’ve been thinking a lot about recently is this idea of creating from a place of joy and peace and because I enjoy the act of creating, rather than creating to prove a point. And when was the moment that created that shift for me? And I actually don’t know. [Laughs] That’s something I’m mining for actively and trying to figure out, like when was the first time I created from a place of joy rather than from a place of wanting to prove something? And I feel like when I’m able to discover that, I’ll be able to maybe tap back into that feeling because I’m starting to be at a point in my career where I feel like I’ve kind of proven everything I set out to prove. And if I don’t unlock that next level of creating from a different place in my body and in my soul and my heart, then I probably won’t be able to make anything better than I’ve made so far.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:
Misha, that reflection on joy hits me deep. And I want to riff on that just for a second, because, so much of negotiating identity, so much of being the wholeness of ourselves in the world, is about resilience, is about resistance, is about understanding the social, political, economic, cultural barriers. And yet it’s exhausting, isn’t it? It’s exhausting to constantly be in a state of resilience and resistance. And so when you talk about joy, I immediately feel like, Oh, what does it look like to create and to be outside of the constant fight? Have you had those moments where you’ve created, I guess, primarily from a place of joy and how has that in a way been different?

MISHA EUCEPH: 
You know, it’s interesting that you use the word resistance, because I think what I’m seeking is actually a very Islamic aim, ultimately. I want to create and exist in a place of surrender. And I think that when people talk creatively about flow, that’s what they’re talking about. They’re talking about being in line with your aim in the universe, right? Rami Yusef of actually said this in season one of Tell Them in his episode, where he said we all have this deep, intuitive sense of the path we’re supposed to be on. And I think that a lot of life is just unlocking that and then continuously remembering that when we find ourselves in moments of resistance, maybe it’s off the path. And it’s not always super black and white, you know, the way that it’s been presented to us as like moral questions of like the Ten Commandments or whatever. Often it is just a little feeling in your gut. And so I think in terms of things that I have created from a place of surrender and moments that I’ve felt that, I would say that season one of Tell Them, I Am very much felt like surrender. And it was, I think, the first moment in my life where I was living in this kind of confluence of everything feeling right, every episode felt like it was a form of release. It was catharsis and not like pushing a boulder up a mountain. And then also where I was at in my personal life felt like it was in line with that. But then very quickly after that, I started to feel like those very things, that exact same job I was in, the house I was living in, how I was living my life, who I was in a relationship with at the time — all of that started to feel stagnant and like resistance immediately after that. And so something can be surrender in one moment and resistance in another. So that’s like the most — that’s the height of it that I’ve felt. I think there were moments in creating season two of Tell Them where I felt that. It’s really hard to feel that in isolation, though. Because I think so much of that feeling of surrender and of flow and creative joy comes from collaboration. And collaborating over Zoom will only get you a semblance of what you experience in person, you know, and in community like IRL. So I’ve been having a really hard time kind of tapping into that, even in moments where, like — I think season two is the best work I’ve ever created in my entire life. And I think it’s leaps and bounds better than season one. But I didn’t get that level of fulfillment that said to me that it was like complete and total surrender or abandon or abundance. So I think that’s a function of the pandemic, a side effect. And I don’t really know — I don’t know how you tap into that and I’m constantly asking myself that question right now.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:
What drew you towards audio as your medium, as your clay, as the raw materials for your art?

MISHA EUCEPH:
I get this question so much. I don’t have an answer. It was just a pull. It’s like falling in love, you know, you feel compelled and then you come up with all sorts of reasons. You’re like, “Yeah, that person is really tall. They’re good looking. I don’t know, they eat healthy. They’re doing really well in their life.” Like whatever you can make up, whatever kind of tiny reason or big reason about values or whatever. A lot of people say it’s the intimacy of audio that draws them. I don’t know. I really don’t know. I think that it’s just… I like it. I just really like it. I’ve always felt compelled by it, and I feel like there’s so much that has yet to be done. And you know, I always knew deep down that like I was headed — and this is going to sound very egotistical. It is. I don’t mean it, but it is. I kind of knew I was on a path towards greatness for a really long time, like since I was a kid. But I never knew how I was going to get there, you know? And I never in my wildest dreams thought that it was going to be from making like podcasts. Like I would — when I was a kid that wasn’t even a thing. It’s a brand-new industry. And then on top of that, like no one could have predicted, even if the industry was new, that it would get attention from Hollywood, that it would get the kind of funding and, you know, create pathways that it did, that I would get like representation from a big agency because of it. Like all these things that happened within this medium, I feel like were happy happening in real time as I was moving further along. To me, it’s always been a sign that I’ve been on the right path because the universe is literally changing in front of my eyes to accommodate the dreams that I had through an industry that, like, honestly had no reason to go down this path. I’m not saying it was all for me. It is just happening simultaneously. But for me to have tread this path and to have decided to go down this road wasn’t accidental. But I don’t know. I don’t know what draws me to it. I love it. [Laughs]

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:
Can you go back and tell us the first time that you created something in audio? A time you create your first program, that moment where things started clicking and inexplicably you said, “This is it, there’s something happening here.”

MISHA EUCEPH: 
I think for me it started long before creating something. I think it started with listening. I used to be the kind of person who would occupy a lot of space in a room. Where I would come in and I would, I would think that the way that you win people’s hearts and get approval is by talking the most or being the loudest or making the most visible or auditory impression, in that way. And at some point, I started to notice that the people who are the most interesting and in some ways had the most star quality, and also were having the most impact in any room, were the ones who were really listening. And when they would speak, they would speak with intention and they were responsive rather than reactive. And so I think that for me, it was in that change that I started to really pay attention. And then in terms of creating, I think the first thing I ever created in audio was a live radio show called Dates and Other Mistakes. And it was at KUCI where I went to undergrad. I took a quarter off from school. I was like really lost and confused about what I was doing. And all I did that entire quarter was at the radio station. And my friend Isaac Ashworth and I hosted this show and we like had our professors on and all these random people and everyone was talking about their love lives and what their love language is and it was just really fun. And it was the first time I did something in my life where I felt like the hard, tedious, logistical stuff was even fun. You know, I would like wake up looking forward to it every day. So that was the first time that I like created something in audio and felt like, “Oh, I can continue doing this.”

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:
I hope you have tapes around somewhere of those episodes.

MISHA EUCEPH:
I’m sure I do. I’ve been looking. I haven’t been able to find it, but I think I do somewhere in like a hard drive or something.

DR. ULRIKE AL-KHAMIS:

Hello, I am Dr. Ulrike Al-Khamis, the Aga Khan Museum’s director and CEO. Did you know we have posted dozens of fascinating talks about art and culture to our YouTube channel? Hear from contemporary artist Ekow Nimako, whose awe inspiring Afrofuturistic LEGO sculpture, Kumbi Saleh 3020 CE, just joined the Museum’s permanent Collection. Or, discover the story behind Remastered, our exhibition celebrating the Museum’s world-class collection of Iranian, Ottoman, and Mughul Indian miniature paintings. For all that and more, search Aga Khan Museum on YouTube and click the subscribe button. And now, back to This Being Human.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Misha often tells personal stories about her parents on her podcast. In one episode, she talks about how she takes after her mom’s habit of taking stacks of napkins when she leaves a restaurant. In another, she recalls her first panic attack, when her dad tried to take her on a rollercoaster. So I wondered, what do her parents think of the show?

MISHA EUCEPH:
They love it. They’re huge fans. I mean, they make jokes, you know? There are times when they’re like, “Oh, like, are you going to tell another story? Like, you’re exaggerating. We have to tell all our friends, like, ‘This is not exactly how it happened. Misha’s embellishing a little for the for the podcast.’ ” I think that at the end of the day, they’re incredibly proud. I think my mom was probably more apprehensive than my dad. I think my dad’s always been a risk taker and has encouraged me to push the boundaries and to be a bit provocative. I think that between the two of them, I’ve developed a very steady head on my shoulders and a good sense of integrity. And so anything that is in service of the story, even if it’s going a little far by like, I don’t know, societal standards or Muslim standards, is very much within a place where I feel like I’m doing them justice. And ultimately, you know, everything I create is for them. I feel like I have been lucky enough, as a Muslim woman born and raised in Pakistan, to be myself and a lot of that is because my parents had the courage to continue to nurture my voice even when it came at their expense, even when it meant their reputation was questioned in the community. They stood by me and they stood by their upbringing. And I think that that trust in their moral values and that trust in me has helped me continue to be someone who’s, you know, trying to live in line with my integrity and has a very peaceful relationship with my many identities. So I think they deserve all the credit in the world. They’ve grown so much and they’ve helped me grow so much and help me stay accountable to myself.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

It’s amazing, you know? I think as we’re growing up, we often think about our parents as fixed, don’t we? And it’s so fascinating hearing about their sort of evolution and their journey on this with you. And it kind of does take me back to that moment where you, as a 12 year old, arrived in the United States from Karachi. It’s 2003, two short years after 9/11. In some ways, you know, you’re a child of hat time. And now sitting where you are, telling these stories as you have and Tell Them, I Am, and now telling so many fascinating stories, working with so many fascinating people, your creativity kind of going in all kinds of amazing directions. Do you think that that 12-year-old would recognize the Misha today?

MISHA EUCEPH:
I don’t know about the 12-year-old, but I think the four-year-old Misha would be very, very proud and very happy. I think my whole life’s goal has just been to go back to being four. You know, like I was a very happy, mischievous kid with a rich imagination. And I loved being around people. I loved building community around me. And I didn’t have a lot of inhibition. And I think that, like, over time — like puberty is brutal, adolescence is brutal, and then moving to a different country post 9/11, like at that age, is literally the worst thing you can do to a teenager. Like that’s like, that’s torture. So I think 12-year-old Misha was incredibly insecure and probably had very different standards of what was cool and what she wanted to do with her life. Like, I think I cared a lot more at that age about like, you know, painting my nails neon colours and straightening my hair than I did about anything of any value. But I think yeah, I think that 12-year-old Misha would maybe feel like there is a world outside of the constraints that existed in like Palos Verdes Intermediate School. You know? And that maybe cool is not the currency you want to trade in. Maybe there is something that is more meaningful. And I think it’s so funny because I feel like the less I care about being cool, the cooler I become, you know?

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

You are definitely cool, Misha.

MISHA EUCEPH:
[Laughs] Thank you. Thank you. And it’s just like I just don’t care anymore. My only gauge in life is like, “What compels me? What is the right thing to do? What do I like? What is exciting?” Not like, “What is trendy? What are other people doing? Like, what are people going to think of this?” Like I just don’t care. Unless it’s from a sense of like empathy, like, “How am I going to make other people feel?” That is an important question to me, but I think that that’s actually the key to becoming cool, right? And I wish 12-year-old Misha knew that. And 28-year-old Misha knows it and four-year-old Misha knew it. So I’m glad that we bridged that gap.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I see the source material for a podcast here.

MISHA EUCEPH:
Do you? What is it?

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:
I mean, it is this, messages to my prepubescent self.

MISHA EUCEPH:
Mmm. Yeah. I’m surprised no one’s done that already.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:
I’m also surprised. [Laughs]

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

In 2020, there was a reckoning in American podcasting over intellectual property rights for racialized creators — and Misha was one of them. Her show Tell Them, I Am was owned by the radio station where she had created it, which is pretty typical. She wasn’t happy with some of her experiences there, including what she described as a lack of marketing and support for the show. So she wanted to take it over, but initially, she wasn’t able to. She ended up quitting and spoke out publicly about her experience. Eventually, she succeeded in taking back control of the show and making a second season with help from Higher Ground, the Obamas’ production company. I asked her how she managed to persevere when many would just give up and moved on to something else.

MISHA EUCEPH:
I would be lying if I said I didn’t do that, I definitely did that at one point. When Tell Them came out and I asked about equity and ownership of the station at the time and didn’t get a positive response or any momentum, I was searching for other jobs. I was trying to figure out a way out, and I had kind of resigned myself. I was like, “You know what? I made something great with people I love. It was a fun time. How often do you get to do that? Maybe I just move on from it, quit while I’m ahead, leave on a high.” And deep down in my bones, that entire time, I was like, “This is not fair, like it’s not about Tell Them, I Am. It’s not about this station.” It’s about how creators are treated in this industry. And it’s about how in capitalism we think it is OK for us to exploit other people’s art and their emotional labour and their stories and own them as if providing resources or giving money to produce that entitles us to owning them and to profiting off of them without giving the creator a cut or a fair share of that. And I just was like, “No, I don’t believe in this. I don’t think that this is a fair system.” And I think that there were a lot of people in my personal life at the time around telling me that there’s no point in fighting for that ownership and that “I’m asking for too much. I’m too, I’m entitled. I’m being bratty or petulant.” And there were also people within the industry who have that mindset. And then BIPOC people, we just believe we don’t deserve anything for the most part, right? We’re just like, “Oh, no, we’re so lucky to be here.”  And then, honestly, I think it was just leaving the station and taking some time on disability, post my accident and having some time to think and realizing like what really matters to me having like a second chance at life. And I just felt like it was it was just really important to me. And it wasn’t actually until a lot of the media whistleblowing was happening that I started to feel like I have a right to this and I can set a precedent for other people. And that’s when this idea of like building an ethical entertainment company really started to take root for me and became a part of what I want to put out into the world. That struggle to get Tell Them, I Am back was hard. But what was heartening was that it started with other BIPOC creators. And to be perfectly specific and honest, it started with Black creators who I think have it by far the worst. I think some of them who started that whole Twitter, you know, not “war,” but conversation have still not gotten their intellectual property back. And it’s them that — you know, it’s their shoulders that I was standing on. And I was lucky that I had the backing of Higher Ground Audio at that time. I had to buy my show back. I didn’t get it back for free from KPCC, but I’m glad that they did the right thing. I’m glad that they were, you know, they offered it back, that they didn’t make me pay an exorbitant amount of money. And I’m glad that it has caused positive ripple effects in the industry. But I think there’s still a lot of work to be done. And emotionally, it’s a lot of labour to go through that and to fight for, like essentially, your baby, which is rightfully yours all along.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

When Misha is not running a production company, hosting podcasts, or working with the Obamas, she also finds time to run something called The Qur’an Book Club on her Instagram account. Every week, she has a guest on and they read from the Qur’an, line by line, and have a free-wheeling and engaging discussion about it. The conversation is captivating. I’ve never seen anything quite like it. But according to Misha, it’s a simple formula.

MISHA EUCEPH: 

You just do what nobody ever actually does in a book club, which is read the book. I think that for me, Qur’an Book Club was something that, again, I wanted to do. I think that the book is very different than what people think it is. And I think we very rarely get to see and hear people who are younger, who are living as part of the diaspora, who are doing cool, interesting things, and who might have unconventional opinions from a religious standpoint, from an orthodox Muslim standpoint, getting to read the Qur’an and talk about it in an intellectual space, from a place of non-judgment you know? And not necessarily from a place of like this is a religious exercise, but this is like an academic, intellectual exercise. And initially it was just going to be like people could just talk about, like different verses randomly. And then at some point I was like, “No, I think it would be way cooler if we actually read cover to cover and if we read it in English translations.” Because it’s so common for people of Muslim upbringing to have read the Qur’an in Arabic without actually understanding the language. I wanted people to read it. I wanted people to know it, especially because we have so many misinterpretations, you know, whether it’s people who are hateful, who are spreading anti-Islamic rhetoric or whether it’s people who are fundamentalist and extremist who are spreading really, really damaging interpretations, which I think have very little backing in the actual text. The more people are reading it, the more people are going to be able to fight back. So it’s the simplest tool of empowerment and it is the first command in the Qur’an itself. So that’s where the concept came from.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

 You know, a common thread through so much of your work, is, for me, this this desire to break down between — break down the gap, rather — between the whole of ourselves and our faith, not only to make it more accessible, human, and personal, but to make it just living and real and speak to who we are, where we are at this moment, and knowing that all that can change. And then we’ll reinvent it and will re-engage with it all over again. Because we’re human and because we’re changing and because we’re reacting and adapting to a changing world around us. What guides you spiritually? What guides that heart effort that brings us such beautiful and compelling programming?

MISHA EUCEPH:

I mean, the very simple answer is I identify as Muslim. Islam guides me spiritually, and I think for me that takes a lot of different shapes. But most importantly, it is a very physical manifestation of my integrity. I think that more often than not, my body leads me where I need to go and towards the right thing to do. And sometimes those are dangerous, precarious, uncharted waters. And I’m willing to go there because I know that it’s important and it’s going to have positive effects outside of me. But I also know that I’m always feeling more whole and more full of joy and honest when I do follow that gut feeling, so to speak. I think a lot about the world as it is and the world as it can be. And I think the mistake we keep making over and over again as a faith, as a community, as humanity, as people who are part of a diaspora, is to continue to pretend that we’re something that we’re not. And I just want to help people access who they actually are and find beauty and joy in that space, because I think that’s the real first step. That’s the work that’ll get us to to the world as it should be.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Misha Euceph, what does this being human mean to you?

MISHA EUCEPH:

Being present. I think when you’re present, you allow yourself to feel awe and that is probably the height of what it means.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Misha Euceph, this has been not just an honour, but an absolute pleasure, a conversation that, for me, has opened a dozen doors for future conversations. Thank you so much for joining us on This Being Human.

MISHA EUCEPH:
Thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

You can find Tell Them, I Am on any podcast app and watch Misha’s Qur’an Book Club every Friday on her Instagram page: meuceph. We’ll put a link in the show notes.

This Being Human is an Antica production. Our senior producer is Kevin Sexton. Our executive producer is Pacinthe Mattar. Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Production assistance by Annie MacLeod. Original music by Boombox Sound.

Antica’s Executive Producers are Kathleen Goldhar and Lisa Gabriele. Stuart Coxe is the president of Antica Productions.

This Being Human is generously supported by the Aga Khan Museum, one of the world’s leading institutions that explores the artistic, intellectual, and scientific heritage of Islamic civilizations around the world. For more information about the Museum, go to www.agakhanmuseum.org.

The Museum wishes to thank Nadir and Shabin Mohamed for their philanthropic support to develop and produce This Being Human.