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ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Welcome to This Being Human…I’m your host Abdul Rehman-Malik. On this podcast from the Aga Khan Museum, I talk to extraordinary people from all over the world whose life, ideas and art are shaped by Muslim culture.

 

NADIR NAHDI:

There’s a new generation that has a very unique perspective to how they see themselves as young Muslims in the modern world.

 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS:

I am this wide eyed girl. I’m like, I want it all, I want to experience it all.

 

GINELLA MASSA:

Everyone has a story. Sometimes you just have to find out what it is.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Like the poem that inspires this podcast, The Guest House, by Sufi poet Jallaludin Rumi, we’re talking to people who seek meaning and joy in work and life…regardless of what the day brings.

 

It’s hard to describe Yazz Ahmed’s music. The best term that people seem to have come up with is “psychedelic Arabic jazz.”

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah, I just try and be honest. I don’t have any kind of pre-thought out kind of formulas. I try and write intuitively. That’s what I try and do. And the music may be challenging, may be very easy to listen to. It’s just, yeah, what comes out.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Yazz is a trumpeter, flügelhornist and bandleader, born in Bahrain and trained in the United Kingdom. Her music mixes the exciting new strains of jazz coming out of London with traditional Arabic rhythms and sounds.

 

She’s part of what The Guardian recently called the “British jazz explosion,” where young musicians are experimenting with new and exciting ideas, while also trying to make jazz more accessible.

 

Yazz has a long and eclectic list of collaborators under her belt, including Radiohead, the London Jazz Orchestra, and the reggae pioneer Lee “Scratch” Perry. She has also released three acclaimed solo albums. Her 2017 album, La Saboteuse, was named album of the year by The Wire. She was voted Best Jazz Act in the UK at the 2020 Jazz FM Awards, where she also won in the “best album of the year” category.

Yazz joined me from her home in London to talk about collaborating, women in jazz, and blending musical traditions from across time and space.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Yazz Ahmed, after that illustrious list of musical achievements, I want to say how excited we are to have you on This Being Human.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Let’s talk about the genesis of Yazz Ahmed, your origin story. And let’s talk about the first time you remember hearing what we would call jazz. What were you listening to? What did you hear? Where were you? Are those memories that come back to you?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah, so I grew up in Bahrain till I was nine and during that time I was always interested in music. And my mum, she would play me, reggae, jazz, classical music, all sorts of things. And then when we moved to England, well moved to London, South London when I was nine, and that’s when I started playing the trumpet. My mum’s dad, he was a jazz trumpet player in the 1950s and played with people like John Dankworth and Tubby Hayes and Ronnie Scott. And he also became a record producer. So when I went to school, they were offering music lessons and my mom asked me what I’d like to play, and I said the trumpet because of Terry, my grandfather. And, you know, I really looked up to him and the trumpet, it was shiny for a start so that’s very attractive to a little child. But also I loved the sound of it. And Terry would play to me, jazz records and I really love the music. I love the spirit. I didn’t understand it, but the colors and the tones and the language,you know, it really resonated with me. But, you know, at that time, throughout my childhood, I didn’t really listen to much Arabic music, which is strange, but I grew up with those sounds anyway. I brought up those memories later in my life when I became more aware of my identity. You know, I’m a mixture. And growing up mainly in the UK, I’d kind of left that side of me back in Bahrain. And as you develop into a teenager, you do kind of question, you know, who are you? What’s my identity? Rediscovering Arabic music really made me feel whole again.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Did you find that as you were rediscovering that musical heritage and you had clearly your grandfather’s mentorship and guidance into the universes of jazz – Did you find even at that age, you starting to make sort of connections between the two? Did the two sit next to each other? I should say, how did the two sit next to each other, as you’re as you’re growing in your music?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

I didn’t really hear the connection until I discovered this amazing album by Rabih Abou-Khalil, who was an oud player based in Germany. And I picked up this album because it had my favorite trumpet player on of all time, which is Kenny Wheeler. I was really intrigued by this album because it had Arabic musicians and instruments, but also jazz musicians. And, you know, this was very curious. I thought, what is this going to sound like? Surely this can’t work. And so yeah, I listened to it and it was a beautiful marriage of the two different types of music. And then that really inspired me to experiment and write my own interpretation of Arabic jazz if you like. I don’t know if that is really a genre or was a genre, but it is now.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

You’ve certainly made it one Yazz. I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask this. Is there a particular album? Is there a particular piece of music that you remember listening to with your grandfather or something that was introduced to you or your grandfather? Is that kind of- that piece of music that kind of works into your sinews into you and you kind of always remember or go back to, that’s always sort of emblematic of this childhood mentorship that you had with this incredible human being and this incredible musician.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah, I think there are two artists that really stuck with me. So he played me a lot of Dizzy Gillespie records. I know he was a big fan. I think he met him and they shared a hug as well, which was nice. Yeah. So I love those records and the albums that I had was amazing because they were live recordings and the audiences went absolutely mad after each, you know, tune. And I thought, Wow, people really dig this music and it’s really exciting. So I loved that. And also there’s an album, it’s called 100% Proof by Tubby Hayes. So he’s a British saxophone player. And he produced this record. And I loved the sounds and it was very different to American jazz. And so I found that also intriguing and very enjoyable to listen to. So I think those two artists really sparked my curiosity into this, you know, into jazz.

 

And then, yeah, you hear the audience after and you think, wow, wonder what that must have been like actually sitting there witnessing this amazing music happening. And, you know, I think it’s because a lot of jazz is improvised and you’re in the moment. You’re seeing these musicians create something special that’s only at that time and place, you know. Jazz is expressive music. It’s protest music. The history is very rich and comes from a place of struggle. So there’s always been that emotion from the start.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

As you’re listening on these LPs to the crowd go wild after kind of an incendiary set from Dizzy Gillespie, is that the moment you kind of said, huh, I’d like to do that?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah, I think it did encourage me to… I used to try and play along to the records.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Oh wow.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

I was very young, so I didn’t have the technique or understanding. But I used to, you know, play along.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I love that image, Yazz. I love that image of you, of you playing along next to the speakers or next to the record player.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah. That’s right, yeah.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

It’s like you’re being trained by Dizzy. It’s like, it’s like Dizzy is your teacher as well.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think I’d play with a mute as well because I was a bit embarrassed if anyone could hear me. Not really knowing how to play that well, at that time, you know, I was very young. But yeah, I was really interested in how it worked so for me it was playing along and being, you know, part of that enjoyment that I heard on the records.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I think I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you Yazz that you know, when you were younger and you were kind of choosing your instrument, you settled on the trumpet. I know on the way there you also played the flugelhorn?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah. So the flugelhorn was actually later on.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Was it? Okay, so tell me about that. What gets you playing the flugelhorn? I always think of it and maybe this is certainly my bias and, to all flugelhornists out there who might be listening, I mean no offense but a flugelhorn seems like a very niche instrument.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

So from playing in youth big bands when I was studying at the Mercer Music Foundation in South London, I saw a lot of the parts. They said flugelhorn and I thought, what is that? And I heard some of my, sort of my peers, my teachers, they played flugelhorn. And it sounded very different to the trumpet. And it was a really beautiful, warm sounding instrument and it kind of has its own personality. And I borrowed a flugelhorn to start with, because I couldn’t afford to buy one. And I fell in love with it and it’s part of my personality. So some of the music I write is specifically for trumpet and some is for flugelhorn. And I play differently on each instrument as well.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

There’s something about the trumpet. And really what occurred to me, and I know you deal with this in your work and in who you are and the amazing music that you gift the world. But I think it’s many ways when we think about women in jazz, right, we think about folks on the piano or we think about vocalists. We often don’t think about flugelhornists or certainly trumpet players. There’s a sense that the trumpet, the saxophone, the trombone, etc., are… it’s part of kind of like a masculine tendency in jazz. There’s something really male about it. And I think, you know, when I was first introduced to your music and someone says, you got to listen to Yazz Ahmed, she’s an incredible trumpeter. I think my inherent patriarchy, there is something that goes, “oh, a female trumpeter.” It kind of comes out and you catch yourself. Why, why shouldn’t there be female trumpeters? But you must deal with this sense of the way in which particular types of music, and particular jazz music, become gendered. And so I wonder how it was like as a young woman picking up the trumpet, because the folks that you were listening to are like the Miles Davis. And you know, when you think about Miles, there’s something very masculine about Miles Davis. You know, there’s something about these players. Talk me through a little bit of what it means to be a woman who’s playing the trumpet and who’s part of this kind of great musical tradition.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

My first trumpet teacher was actually a woman. So I, from the start, didn’t think it was strange. It wasn’t until I was graduating from high school and as I went on in my teens, I noticed that more and more girls were dropping out of the youth bands and stuff. And I thought mm, that’s a bit strange. I didn’t understand it. And then when I joined university and also music college, that’s when I realized, okay, something’s not quite right here because I was the only girl on the course, the only jazz player and I didn’t know of any other female trumpeters. So, yeah, that’s when I started to realize that something’s not quite right. And you know, it took me a lot of kind of learning to understand what was going on. So, you know, I feel that a lot of girls are put off becoming professional musicians, especially brass players and woodwind players. I think because in jazz, it’s not really accepted. It’s accepted to be a female singer, but not so much as an instrumentalist. And I think that also stems down to when we’re growing up. So, for example, when I was at high school studying music, I remember this poster on the wall of all the great composers, and all of them were European and all of them were men. So from that point, I thought, okay, so women aren’t intelligent enough to become composers and that’s really, really sad. And so I just thought, okay, I’ll try and be the best trumpet player I can be. And I didn’t see any other women around me. And so that also made me question, okay, maybe girls aren’t good enough. And then it took me in some way, I think early twenties, until I found a female trumpet player that I discovered that I’d never heard of any other female jazz trumpet players out there. And that was Ingrid Jensen. And I thought, wow, you know, maybe I could become like this one day. Maybe I could be a professional jazz trumpeter. And it’s really interesting. It just shows that lack of visibility really affects any sort of minority, you know. So for me, I try my best to employ female players, you know, in my band and to give female musicians opportunities because, you know, we need to give them those opportunities so we can have more of an equal musical society. And that makes us a better and happier world, right?

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Absolutely. Do you feel that as a woman, you bring a particular, the different sensibility to the trumpet? And if so, what is that sensibility? What does Yazz Ahmed bring to that instrument?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Well, I’m different. You know, I have a different perspective to life. And, you know, I come from a, you know, mixed background. So my life experiences are different to, say, somebody who’s just English or someone who’s, well, whatever. You know, or man. So I already have, you know, this feeling of being different and also wanting to share my stories with people. And I think because I am a woman and I have experienced sexism and lack of representation, that kind of really inspired me to write music dedicated and inspired by courageous women, which is Polyhymnia, that album. And, you know, I did pour a lot of emotion into that, and it was very outward looking. But I also wanted to put my own personality into the music. So it felt like a joint kind of collaboration. I suppose, you know, from those people’s lives and you know, my interpretation. Yeah. So I think I just come from a different place compared to your average kind of male. I don’t know, stereotypical male trumpet player, for example.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

You know, you talk about Olympia and it’s an album which is a series of odes to women you admire. And there’s names that we know on there, Rosa Parks, amongst others. But there’s one lesser known woman that you paid tribute on that album. And that was Barbara Thompson, who was a jazz multi-instrumentalist who passed away this past summer. When I heard that, I became even more intrigued. Who was Barbara Thompson and what did she mean to you?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

I didn’t really know much about her until I saw an interview on the BBC. Well it’s a whole documentary about her, her life, her struggles. This was obviously before I’d started writing Polyhymnia, and I was very struck by her story. You know, she had Parkinson’s disease, and it was something that made playing very, very difficult. And so she had to take a lot of medication. And there was only a certain window that when the medication worked, that she could play. So, you know, she’d do these massive kind of rock stadium concerts. You know, she’s in real pain, but she’s fighting through and expressing herself, playing her music, you know, being a really strong role model. And I think that’s amazing that, you know, she’s someone so devoted to her work. And, you know, that’s really inspiring. She just wouldn’t let the illness kick her down, you know, something to admire.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Yazz’s talents and musical voice meant that she quickly gained attention and became a sought-after collaborator. And not just among jazz artists.

 

Early in her career, she got an invitation to record with Radiohead, on what would become their 2011 album, King of Limbs.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

We went to the studio and Jonny Greenwood, he played us the inspiration. So they played us some Alice Coltrane, which I thought, oh, this is really interesting.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

That’s awesome.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah. And another strange – they played us this, this weird video of a brass band being tied to a tree. This film, I don’t know what it was about, but kind of Balkan sounding brass

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Seems very on-brand for Radiohead.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah, it was really weird. But anyway, yeah, we got into the studio and there was some written parts and we tried out some parts of some improvised sections as well, and they seemed to have liked what we did. And yeah, it’s on the album, so it’s good.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

You know, it must be interesting to go into that with all the, you know, all the kind of the mythology of Radiohead and then being in the studio with them and making music. It must be a kind of fascinating experience because they’re no longer the Radiohead of stage, but they’re Radiohead the creators, just as you are, these kind of musical creators. I guess there’s a meeting of heart and mind that’s very different there.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah, what was really interesting is that they’re all very shy. So it wasn’t strange meeting them, you know, it wasn’t starstruck, which is good because that would have been embarrassing. So yeah, they’re really friendly, really nice. And then yeah, they asked us to play on their live From The Basement session and yeah, that was good fun. So obviously we did a good job. So yeah, cause they asked us back.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

That’s awesome. I feel listening to your albums, Yazz, that each one of course is telling us a story. But now looking back at your work, I feel like each one is telling us a story and then the next one is continuing the story and in kind of new ways and new directions. And I still find really compelling, your first album, which is called Finding My Way Home, and I think in some ways it does the job before I even listen to the album right. I’m ready to find that map. I’m ready to find that route that’s going to take me back to this idea of home. And you left Bahrain at the age of nine. And I’m wondering, Yazz Ahmed, do you think of your music as a way of connecting to your homeland or a homeland or a home?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

 

 

Yeah, definitely. I mean, even though I was in Bahrain for nine years it still is my first home and I still, you know, at times I have a longing for it. And yeah, music, Arabic music has connected, you know, those two heritages for me. But what really made me feel at home, it was a special moment when I rediscovered the traditional music of Bahrain. So the music of the pearl divers and the women drumming groups, that was a real – that felt like a real connection because I had some funding to go on a study trip to Bahrain. I got to meet the pearl divers, I got to go to their clubhouse for a private concert, and they allowed me to record the concert and it was – it was like a trance like experience. It was really fantastic. And, you know, it was a very small room. So I was, I could feel the music and, you know, I was experiencing it and it felt so, so special. And then I thought, oh, I really feel Bahraini now. And, you know, I felt like I embraced my culture finally after all these years. And that has definitely taken my music to a different place as well. And so yeah, my music is always evolving. That trip in 2014 inspired another suite, which is called Alhaan al Siduri, which is going to be my next studio album as well.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Oh, wonderful.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

So yeah, that’s a very, very personal album to me. So I look forward to sharing that music with you.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Oh that is really exciting. So this particular project has emerged out of your re-engagement with the music of your homeland. And I think when I think of pearl divers, it feels like an incredibly dangerous and I mean, just a kind of a profession, a calling out of time, you know, that these divers who go out into the coral reefs and who go out into the oceans and just go out and find these pearls. I mean, the sense of it is something like a time out of place right? Something really magnificent and from a different era at a different time, but this is a living tradition.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah, it is. I mean, not so much these days cause pearls are kind of farmed now, but people still dive for fun I suppose. But yeah, it’s very dangerous because it’s freediving, no equipment. I think you just have a kind of net around your neck and some of the divers would wear pegs on their noses and a rope attached to their ankle. So, like, very basic. No sort of technical high tech equipment. I’ve been on the boat with my dad and his friends and yeah, he went diving down for pearls, even though, you know, nobody really does that anymore. But yeah, he had a plastic bag and just went to the bottom and got some oysters. They’re very, very tiny sort of, yeah, not really worth anything, but people know how to do it and yeah, it’s really crazy and also kind of cool.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Yeah, it’s super cool. I wonder how the music of the pearl divers speaks to the experience of pearl diving. Could you hear the connection between the music and the action?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah. So actually in these concerts the pearl divers give. They do actually have some of the actions in their songs. So sort of pulling the rope for the sails, diving and sort of dancing, you know, kind of in a twirl. I suppose a bit like Sufism kind of thing, you know, you really get into a trance, but also the lyrics, the songs are about longing, loneliness, you know, being away from home for such a long time and being hopeful that you’ll come back with riches and the possibility of coming back with nothing. Yeah, so a lot of the songs are actually quite sad. There aren’t – yeah, they’re mostly quite sad songs. What I really like, there are lots of low drones. And it does feel like the sea. When the men sing their drones, it rumbles. And it’s really, really great music. Yeah.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

How has your music been meshed with that?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

So what I did is with these recordings, I took them home and I wanted to play around with the audio. So I made little loops and affected those loops and made new sounds and new melodies out of like very tiny short segments. And then on top of that, I would write new melodies, have some jazz harmonies and electronics as well. So I took that tradition and modernized it and personalized it to, you know, my own experience.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Before we wrap up Yazz, as I intimated earlier, listening to Yazz Ahmed’s music for me is certainly a spiritual experience. And I’m thinking of some of the pieces from Polyhymnia, where you use voices and layer voices. And all of a sudden, there’s something that makes us feel uneasy, like we’re coming into maybe a sacred space, but certainly a space that we’re unfamiliar with. And the music is challenging us, asking us to come in and we’re sort of standing there a little bit saying, okay, I’m not sure where we are, where this is going to take me. And I think that’s really powerful that all those emotions come to us as we’re listening to your music. I wondered, do you experience or see your music through that spiritual lens, for lack of a better word?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah. I always try to react emotionally, particularly with the pieces on Polyhymnia because I did my research. I read about all the women that I found inspiring and I tried to understand their lives and the music that surrounded them. And so I did have this kind of emotion behind me and would improvise and write down my improvisations as well as, I don’t know, just try to imagine, how would this music represent each person? So yeah, I definitely put a lot of emotion into my, well, all of my compositions. I try and be honest and I don’t yeah, I just try and be honest. I don’t have any kind of pre-thought out kind of formulas. You know, I try not to compose in a… I don’t want to use the word academic but… I don’t know how to describe it exactly. But I don’t have a formula if, you know, I try and write intuitively. That’s what I try and do. And the music may be challenging, may be very easy to listen to. It’s just yeah, what comes out.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Yazz Ahmed, who or what would you like to welcome into your guesthouse?

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Oh, that’s a very good question. I think I would like to welcome Björk. I find her really interesting as a composer and a musician. And she’s, you know, incredibly out there. She’s really unique. And I’d love to, like, pick her brains, you know, because she’s really fascinating and writes amazing music. So, yeah, I would like to welcome her for sure.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I think we need to put this out into the universe together, Yazz. We need to put it out there. And Bjork is going to listen to this and she’s going to hear it. She’s going to be. I’m coming. I’m coming, Yazz. We’re going to do something together. I can only imagine what that music would sound like.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Yeah, that would be amazing. A collaboration.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

It would be amazing.

 

Yazz Ahmed, thank you so much for being on This Being Human.

 

YAZZ AHMED:

Thank you.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Thank you for listening to This Being Human. We’ll put some links to Yazz Ahmed’s music in the show notes.

 

This Being Human is produced by Antica in partnership with TVO. Our Senior Producer is Kevin Sexton. Our associate producer is Zana Shammi. Additional editorial support from Lisa Gabriele. Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Original music by Boombox Sound. Stuart Coxe is the president of Antica Productions. Shaghayegh Tajvidi is TVO’s senior producer of podcasts. Laurie Few is the executive for digital at TVO.

 

This Being Human is generously supported by the Aga Khan Museum, one of the world’s leading institutions that explores the artistic, intellectual and scientific heritage of Muslim civilizations around the world. For more information about the museum go to www.agakhanmuseum.org. The Museum wishes to thank Nadir and Shabin Mohamed for their philanthropic support to develop and produce This Being Human.